The Ranting Game

[Bubba Bob]

several school districts have millions of dollars sitting in overlooked accounts

How does a school district "overlook" that? I'd love to see the school boards response to that.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Bubba Bob

[robroy]

Our county commission had over 4 million it had overlooked sitting in the bank for over two years. The State Auditor found it. The employees got a $1000 raise except for a few who got more> The stupid Finance director got 8000, but she'e the one who lost it. Lost track of it that is. It was sitting in a forgotton account. Most of the employees are extremely pi$$ed off about the situation. So yeah I can understand how a school board can do the same thing

[Brian_Holiday]

Since we are on education, there are a few things we need to bring out:

1) You have to remember that teachers salaries are for ~9 months of work. All the educators I know work during the summer. The NEA union doesn't bring this up often.

2) There are too many administrators.

3) The actual school day is 6 hours long, with a lunch.

I went to 11 schools in 12 years (family situation). There is a VAST disparity in education in this country. If you are unfortunate enough to be educated in a poor rural school, chances are you will end up working a low level job. That just isn't fair in my opinion.

As for teachers pay, we need to look more closely at the actual subject matter they are teaching. For instance, if a teacher is teaching a subject that can be tested using scan-tron and really doesn't have 180 essays to grade a week I think they shouldn't be paid the same. I also believe strongly in tying salaries to performance, though this is problematic since there are certain subcultures in this country who shun education.

The public education system in this country is the only industry that is set up to the benefit of the workers, over what is best for the customer (kids and parents). As an example, my daughter starts school at 0720. Studies show that most teens are hard wired to stay up late and sleep in. So what was the reason for changing the schedule? Traffic.

Despite all of this, I am still considering becoming an educator. Go figure, maybe its the three month vacations.

BH

[Naming is hard]

A big problem in the school systems is "expensive fluff".  Our school buys new Football uniforms every other year--yet the Soccer team wears their uniforms for 5-8 years, "because people pay for football games so it brings in money".  Why in the world do they need to "look pretty"?  Fans care about the games, not the looks.

Liz

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah but its kinda hard to play in broken helmets and riped gear ^^

[blim]

A big problem in the school systems is "expensive fluff".  Our school buys new Football uniforms every other year--yet the Soccer team wears their uniforms for 5-8 years, "because people pay for football games so it brings in money".  Why in the world do they need to "look pretty"?  Fans care about the games, not the looks.

Liz

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah but its kinda hard to play in broken helmets and riped gear ^^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely true, Naming, BUT that wasn't the "excuse" given to the Soccer Coach when he begged for new uniforms (the shorts elastic degraded to the point where his wife was replacing it so the shorts wouldn't fall off ) I know if your point was given, there would be no hard feelings at all! But tis a problem in our school district--the Varsity Football Coach is the Athletic Director and the Assistant Principal. He has a bit too much power.

Liz

[JDoors]

You do bring up some good points, all of which have counter-arguments, valid or not, from the unions. 1) Not a year-'round job? Answer: They put in extra time that's not on the clock. 2) Too many administrators and not enough cooks? No answer as far as I know. 3) Short day? See answer for #1.

1) When considering how much they make, we should be allowed to consider ... Well ... How much they make. Not just at their position in school, but additional income. If I worked one day a year and got paid $10,000 for that one day I could claim I'm working for poverty-level wages if you don't count any other income I might have. It's impossible to have a discussion of their wage level when we don't know what that might be.

2) This problem is rampant throughout ... everything. I work the midnight shift and I have three department supervisors in addition to dozens of other supervisory personnel on shift.

3) I do agree that time spent in the classroom is not an accurate depiction of their actual work day. I'll give 'em that one.

As for education in poor, rural areas preparing you for little more than menial jobs, there aren't many high paying jobs in poor, rural areas to be had. A lack of jobs is not due to poor education, it's due to geography. I'm not saying their education is or is not sufficient, just that it's not the root cause of poverty in poor, rural areas.

I agree that the focus of the public education bureaucracy is on the perpetuation of the public education bureaucracy and not the best interests of the children.

[Brian_Holiday]

They put in extra time that is not on the clock:

The average American worker does this also, to the tune of 5 hours a week. In my field it is minimum 45 and ocassional 60+ hour weeks. This doesn't make them special. My point is also, not ALL teachers do that. This is extremely variable based on the subject they are teaching. They should be paid more for teaching subjects that are more labor intensive, the same way I am paid a higher salary because I have periods of uncompensated overtime.

So a teacher works about 37 weeks a year (four 9-week periods and 2 half weeks for beginning/ending school (It may be a little more, but that is what it is here)

45,000/37 weeks of actual work = $1,216 a week

Adjusted for the shorter work year that is 63,232 average a year.

If you want to look at the off-clock hours argument, think about this: They have a 6 hour work day compared to 9 for the average american worker. so to make up for the 12 week summer vacation alone and level the playing field for the average american worker they would have to work over 11 hours a day, every day. Thats 5 hours grading papers. Anyone know a teacher that spends 5 hours every day grading papers?

The Unions job is to spin the subject to the benefit of the members. Do the math for yourself, figure out what you would be paid if you took off 3 months a year and had a 6 hour workday.

Administrators:

The problem in education is you can only take so many years of bratty kids. Administration pays better (which is backwards in my opinion), so they go for it. I personnaly think teaching kids should get you hazard pay.

Rural Schools:

Public education is supposed to give all students the tools to meet their potential. No school system should decide that a child is never going to be anything but a farmer and just teach him/her what they need to know for a single career. Unfortunately, that is what is happening. We have turned public education into vocational training. By creating this differential we are dooming an entire segment of society to meanial jobs. I personally think they intentionally do this to assure lower cost labor.

For a long time I was a serious cheerleader for the educator. But that was when I wasn't looking critically at the information I was being given. There are always two sides to every story, and you have to dig into what you are being given.

BH

[TheTerrorist_75]

My school district (Fulton, NY). We are a small city with less than 18,000 residents. Our school budget is $48,000,000.00. Our school tax rate is $24.59 per $1000.00. Our student to teacher ratio is 15/1.

Teachers - 289

Instruct. Aides - 69

Instruct. Coord./Sup. - 3

Elem. Guidance Counselors - 1

Sec. Guidance Counselors - 4

Total Guidance - 6

Librarians/Media Specialists - 3

LEA Admin. - 3

LEA Admin. Support Staff - 23

School Admin. - 9

School Admin. Support Staff - 3

Student Support Svc. Staff - 7

All Other Support Staff KG-12 - 111

2003-04 New York Teacher Salaries

16% of NY Teachers currently retire from school districts paying salaries exceeding $100,000.

How to read the table: 5th, 25th, . . . 95th refer to percentiles. In a district of 100 teachers, the 5th percentile salary is the salary earned by the teacher whose pay is 5th from the bottom. In a district of 200 teachers, the 5th percentile salary is the salary earned by the teacher whose pay is 10th from the bottom. Teachers earning salaries at or below the 5th percentile typically have less than two years of teaching experience.

The 50th percentile salary is the same as the median salary (not the average salary). It is the salary earned by the teacher whose salary is exactly in the middle, between the lowest and highest salaries. Teachers near the 50th percentile typically have 8 to 13 years of experience, but it really depends on the distribution of teacher experience and the number of steps on the salary schedule in each school district.

"Count" refers to the number of teachers in the school district. "Code" is NY's district code. Districts with a 5-digit code should have a leading zero. The first 2 digits of the 6-digit district code equates to the county code. "01" is Albany and the rest follow sequentially in alphabetical order.

Code......... Name....................Count........5th.......25th........50th.........75th....

....95th

460500.....FULTON CITY SD...289.....40780....45933....51571.....56468.....72839

Administrators make well over $150,000.00 per year. Teachers and administrators can retire at 100% of their salaries plus full health benefits for life.

I should have been a teacher.

[Brian_Holiday]

I should have been a teacher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not too late

BH

[TheTerrorist_75]

I should have been a teacher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not too late

BH

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't have the temperment to be a teacher. The first student to piss me off would go through the door while it was closed.

[Brian_Holiday]

I wouldn't have the temperment to be a teacher. The first student to piss me off would go through the door while it was closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See that is EXACTLY what would make you a great teacher!..

Fear is a powerful motivator.

BH

[TheTerrorist_75]

I wouldn't have the temperment to be a teacher. The first student to piss me off would go through the door while it was closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See that is EXACTLY what would make you a great teacher!..

Fear is a powerful motivator.

BH

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Their welfare collecting parents would be screaming lawsuit. This city is over 50% welfare recipients. Another 20% are on unemployment from factory jobs. The kids have no respect for anyone. The theft and drug rates are high here. We have gangs here from Syracuse setting up crack houses. We also have a high population of migrant workers who found out that hooking up with the fat welfare pigs and selling drugs was better than working.

[Brian_Holiday]

Their welfare collecting parents would be screaming lawsuit. This city is over 50% welfare recipients. Another 20% are on unemployment from factory jobs. The kids have no respect for anyone. The theft and drug rates are high here. We have gangs here from Syracuse setting up crack houses. We also have a high population of migrant workers who found out that hooking up with the fat welfare pigs and selling drugs was better than working.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHOA! You are starting to sound....well.....conservative. Keep talking like that the hippie union is going to throw you out!

I feel your pain brother. Our government needs to move from pandering to solving problems. I fear however, it won't happen in our lifetime.

BH

[TheTerrorist_75]

What gets me is that I'm a liberal that lives in the most Republican dominated area of NY. They're the ones allowing this while the liberals are trying to reduce the problems. I believe the parties are switching roles. I don't condemn welfare, but I do condemn it's abusers. I was taught early on that one worked hard to pay the bills. I didn't even want to sign up for SSI but didn't really have much choice in the matter. Of course I also had to look at it that I worked all these years for the benefit. My biggest benefit was that NY has it's own health plan that workers can get at a low cost if they earn under $23,000.00 a year. This insurance paid for my medical bills instead of wasting Medicaid monies.

[bozodog]

Ooohh jeesch, I'm gonna stay outta this one... This server ain't big enough to handle *my* comments.

One thing! Privatize education, and let it become a competitive enterprise. The best of the best will produce, the slackers will fail. It's the American way.

[TheTerrorist_75]

I think parents with kids in school should be liable for the education expenses or if everyone is to be taxed then the damn tax exempt institutions such as churches should pay their fair share.

[Brian_Holiday]

Ooohh jeesch, I'm gonna stay outta this one... This server ain't big enough to handle *my* comments. 

One thing! Privatize education, and let it become a competitive enterprise. The best of the best will produce, the slackers will fail. It's the American way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we are talking about slacking schools, then ok. But if we are talking about kids, I can't agree. I have seen a lot of smart children with poor parent(s). I grew up with a woman who could not have cared less about my education, and it took me about 8 years of my adult life to catch up with my peers. It took me 8 years, and I am above average.

The public education system was set up for the common good, and should be run that way. While I will agree with the notion that the changes over the last 45 years were meant to improve experence of the student, social promotion and lowering the bar have in effect widened the gap between rich and poor in this country. Children have a natural tendency toward taking the easy road. If a parent or a teacher doesn't counter this, kids just don't learn. I have several close friends that grew up in the slums of DC and New York who are very successful. When you speak with these people, you get the same sentiment:

I got out because someone in my life cared enough about me to challenge me and did not let me take the easy way out.

History has shown us that we can't trust all parents to challenge a child. In my case and in many cases, the parent is just unable to perform that service. What we do have control over as a society is the public schools.

As with all absolutes, privatization isn't the entire answer. We at least need vocational schools, schools with smaller class sizes for slower learners, schools for children with behavioral problems, schools for gifted children, etc. We should identify children with special needs (like I was) and tailor their education to meet their needs, not the Teachers Union.

BH

[Brian_Holiday]

I think parents with kids in school should be liable for the education expenses or if everyone is to be taxed then the damn tax exempt institutions such as churches should pay their fair share.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We can tax churches, that would cause a seperation of church and state issue. Besides, Churches are non-profits.

The purpose of the educational system is for the common good. That means we all pay for it. Under your argument, I want all of my federal tax dollars back from all the pork projects like the "Big Dig" that I will never see an advantage from.

Throwing more money at the problem isn't going to help. Here in DC the public schools get 10,000 per student per year and they do worse than the student in the Catholic School system that only spends 7,500 per student. The difference? Culture, better administration, and no social promotion. They concentrate resources on children that need help. Those that don't get larger class sizes.

Class size doesn't always matter. If you think it does, look at Americas colleges. I took quite a few classes with 75 students. Some kids need the extra help, some don't.

BH

Edited September 15, 2005 by Brian_Holiday

[Brian_Holiday]

What gets me is that I'm a liberal that lives in the most Republican dominated area of NY. They're the ones allowing this while the liberals are trying to reduce the problems. I believe the parties are switching roles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We see the same issue here, the flip-flop of liberal/conservative ideology. If you take all of the liberal ideals from the early 60's and assign them to a party, you will end up with the core Republican agenda. The primary difference is, Republicans want results rather than just effort. This is an interesting segway back into the entire "easy way out" tendency of human beings.

LBJ said in one of his recorded phone calls in the White House:

(Paraphrasing:) Since when is being a Liberal about how big a check we can write, we need to see results."

To answer his question: 1969

BH

[bozodog]

I'm tired of paying for an inept education system. Our kids here graduate barely able to read a 6th grade level newspaper. I own a house in town and pay school taxes of course. But I also own 40 acres of God's country, no house, no farming. And over 60% of my taxes on it are school taxes. And.... I have no kids. I can't help feeling that people who chose to have children should be responsible for their upbringing, including education. Can't afford it? Don't have kids. The only difference betwwen man and animal comes down to "choice" in propagation. I'd have no problem with paying for education, but why do families with kids get tax breaks when it's their children that puts a burden on society? Working adults without kids should be the ones getting the break, not paying for those that chose to have a family.

[Brian_Holiday]

And over 60% of my taxes on it are school taxes. And.... I have no kids. I can't help feeling that people who chose to have children should be responsible for their upbringing, including education.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Consider it an investment, if none of us had kids and those kids that people did have weren't educated you would have no one to pay that fat Social Security check you will be getting <yes I'm joking> My Social Security taxes alone paid my Mother and Fathers benefits. We had 5 kids in the family, four were pretty sucessful.

You also have the choice not to own property, or to own property with less value. Then you have to take into account that someone already paid for your education. I understand the sentement, but we all have to do our share. Truckers pay most road taxes, the rest of us get to use the roads essentially free. There are a lot of examples like that.

Now for an interesting exercise, find out how much your government spends per student per year, how many students there are, and do the math. I think you will find they are using the money for something other than education. I support at least 3 children in my area, and I paid for private school education for my child to the tune of 6k a year. I paid TWICE, you only had to pay once.

BH

[blim]

Wow, Brian, you've been one Busy Bunny today---I'm enjoying your posts

As a parent, I definitely see where Bozodog's coming from--in Michigan, education reform is frequently a front page item in the newspaper--our former governor put his girls in private schools!! (don't know about the current one). We have some big problems in schools here--I personally blame the Michigan Teachers Union's Tenure Policies, but the government usually blames Detriot.....(awww, they're "poor"--so what??, right, Brian?) I think the only thing that may "fix" the education problem is either reforming the union or privatization. It's heading that way, too. We have a "schools of choice" policy and the bad schools are losing so many students that they are closing schools and consolidating. Charter Schools are popping up now--some are good, some are bad--too new of a thing to really rank.

Daughter's class was rampant with poor teachers and administrators in our system. I kept track of the "Top Ten Students" in her class (easy to do with a graduating class of less than 100) because they were graded on popularity. Only 2 of those kids got the ACT Merit Award (and about a dozen "less popular" kids got it). All these "straight A" students started college---but only ONE child consistently made the College Dean's List (3.5 GPA)

I agree that those folks who put their kids in private schools should get a tax break!! It could easily be done with State Income Tax breaks.

"Can't afford it? Don't have kids" Oh, Bozodog, I'm with you there. I did Daycare for about 10 years and have said that many times under my breath, with the addition of "if your career is that da*ned important, don't have kids" The stories I can tell of parents putting their jobs before their children...

Liz

[Brian_Holiday]

Wow, Brian, you've been one Busy Bunny today---I'm enjoying your posts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, I guess I am on a roll. My post count is unfair, I tend to have long posts.

I feel you pain on public schools, this is my daughters first year of public school in 4 years (7th Grade). She is under-challenged, her homework takes 20 minutes or less, and the third week of school she still doesn't have all of her books. She is extremely happy, because she is now the best student in each of her classes. She is getting lots of extra credit for actually getting her homework in on time. She is on deck to be a strait A student, when she was a low B student in private school. She is in the best junior high school in our area.

So, I feel guilty I let her go to public school, and spend my weekends giving her additional content (except spelling), homework basicly providing the delta between what she would have learned in private school. I guess the good thing is, she gets intensive personalized instruction. I am not sure she would identify it as a benefit...

The Detroit comment kills me. The poor are the people who need the education most, and cultural issues and corruption are preventing it from getting to them. All we get is excuses from the politicians.

Well anyway, thanks for the compliment.

BH

[TheTerrorist_75]

Oops. Accidently posting the wrong reply to the wrong thread.

Edited September 15, 2005 by TheTerrorist_75

[JDoors]

I don't have too much of a problem paying taxes for schools even though I have no children in the system. At least it gives me the right to complain about how they spend it!

I also understand tax policies that give breaks for those who bear children are meant to encourage and support the traditional family and family values. We all know how well that's working, traditional families and family values are ... Aww, who's kidding who, right?

That tax policy isn't really cutting into the amount families with children contribute to the local school system anyway since it's federal tax credits.

Brian, I really empathize with your dilemma concerning having your child receive an education appropriate for her abilities. It's too bad more parents can't or don't do as you have done, understanding you have to work with what we are given and by taking personal responsibility to ensure your child gets the education she deserves in spite of the challenges of our current system.

As for the poor getting a lesser education that cannot change until we change the way we pay for education (among other things). It makes no sense to pay for education based on the value of the property in the school district. That guarantees the poor will never receive an equal, let alone adequate, education.

Getting mad at politicians or school bureacrats is pointless as they simply don't have the power, authority or mandate to change the entire public school system. Look how fiercely people fight small changes, or temporary, experimental changes. I don't know what exactly it would take to make such a sweeping overhaul possible, but no one we elect or who serve on school boards, has the ... cajones ... to make that kind of change even remotely feasible.