Get Openions On This

[iccaros]

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/06/07/a_c...rk_in_progress/

I'll reserve comment.. until other have read it.

[naraku9333]

I didn't find it incredibly informative although it does mention a few orginizations I hadn't heard of before (BetterDesktop, openusability,etc...). I do like that it (IMO) does show linux in a good light, and they describe some of the varying uses of the OS (desktop, server, embeded,etc...). My only problem with the article (that comes to mind) is that it is pretty broad in topic.

Edited June 9, 2006 by naraku9333

[iccaros]

I liked everything except

If the Linux desktops could converge at their cores, such a common platform would make it easier to support. Or, if there were a leading or highly preferred version that a majority of users would want, we'd preload it."

[hitest]

I would submit that Linux should be unlike windows, I don't want a Windows desktop and it should be reminded that linux not= free windows.

I think that it will become sucessful when people relise that with Linux (and BSD family) they can make the desktop any way they like. maybe this is too much choice for people as people are sheep, but I don't program for sheep.

[Carnevil]

You're going to have to get use to it hitest, linux is on its way to becoming the new windows. In a few years 95% of all distros will be dumbed down to the point that we won't want to use them. To compete with windows, linux needs to be dumbed down for the ignorant masses. If things keep going the way they are, in a few years the only "hardcore distros" will be Slackware,Gentoo, and Arch, and the BSD's.

[jcl]

So, am I going to end up being the token member who doesn't feel contempt for the great unwashed?

[iccaros]

So, am I going to end up being the token member who doesn't feel contempt for the great unwashed?

nope , but we can complain...

we still will accept sheep.... I just wont hire them.

[jcl]

nope , but we can complain...

[iccaros]

Linux can be how ever you make it.

but why should my computer look like it if I don't want it to.

Linspire and others have made it just like windows.. but Windows is looking more and more like Linux and MAC OSX.

I diagree that linux MUST be like windows to be "Ready for the Desktop" ..Vista does not look like windows..

I think UI is merging..

I am just tired of people complaining that Linux does not do X they windows does... maybe windows had the wrong way.. why should other repeate..

also your a software person, do you want to just "copy" other products.. or do you what to create...

[hitest]

Windows is terrible in terms of exposed complexity but at least it's familiar. If we are going to force people to become computer users we could at least try to stick to one user experience so they can learn once and be done. It's unfair, even ethical, to force people to learn a new UE because we don't want Linux to be like Windows. It's even worse that we don't want even the option of Linux being like Windows.

I don't know man. I have the greatest respect for you, as you guided me when I was starting Linux four years ago:-) You were the enigmatic jclanfear that I came to trust and respect. I still respect you, you rule.

The newer versions of Linux ( Ubuntu 6.06, Mandriva, Suse) are easier to install than windows XP. Ubuntu 6.06 now even has a graphical installer..........aaaarrrrggggghhhh.

I don't have contempt for people who only use windows.......okay.......maybe I pity them a bit....heh-heh.

I feel obligated to inform people who are interested about the benefits of using open source software: stability, security, etc.

But, I never make fun of windows users on-line.

But, come on........this is our board. Can't we be ourselves and hate Redmond just a little bit?

[jcl]

The newer versions of Linux ( Ubuntu 6.06, Mandriva, Suse) are easier to install than windows XP.

Indeed. The problem is familiarity. People want to use what they know. The Windows user-experience is by most standards inferior to OS X and at best on par with Linux but the fact remains that Windows users know Windows and don't know OS X or Linux. It takes effort for them to learn the new system and to unlearn the old system. It's reasonable to expect a serious User to expend that effort but for most people the computer simply isn't important enough. Every hour they spend learning is an hour they aren't doing what they want to do.

I feel obligated to inform people who are interested about the benefits of using open source software: stability, security, etc.

But are those really benefits from their POV? And more importantly, do those benefits outweigh the costs? Linux users tend to over-emphasize engineering and ignore human factors. It's fine to inform people about the technical aspects of Linux but there's no reason to think they'll care.

Edited June 11, 2006 by jcl

[iccaros]

The newer versions of Linux ( Ubuntu 6.06, Mandriva, Suse) are easier to install than windows XP.

Indeed. The problem is familiarity. People want to use what they know. The Windows user-experience is by most standards inferior to OS X and at best on par with Linux but the fact remains that Windows users know Windows and don't know OS X or Linux. It takes effort for them to learn the new system and to unlearn the old system. It's reasonable to expect a serious User to expend that effort but for most people the computer simply isn't important enough. Every hour they spend learning is an hour they aren't doing what they want to do.

I feel obligated to inform people who are interested about the benefits of using open source software: stability, security, etc.

But are those really benefits from their POV? And more importantly, do those benefits outweigh the costs? Linux users tend to over-emphasize engineering and ignore human factors. It's fine to inform people about the technical aspects of Linux but there's reason to think they'll care.

I do have to agree with most of your points..

I do have a Mac tale, My Friend, who I have known since the 9th grade, just bought a Mac. why ? because I told them I am tired of cleanign Virus and malware off people systems, and they like the free Tech support.

they bought the IMac 20" and have not called once for support. She told me it was the easyest computer for her ever to setup (she has only used windows 98 - XP).

When her husband came to my house, he had no problems on my Gentoo box, after 5 min on the system with little help from me, and he was using it. this is a person with NO real computer experance at all, except using IE for the web and email and a little word and video games.

I know windows users have problems with things that are diffrent, at work we have set alot of users to "classic mode" as they can not figure out XP, so my fear is, what will we do with Vista?

JCL we all respect your thought on these things.. and we need your kind of knowlage.. its people like you who help make this one of the best linux boards..

he h

Edited June 11, 2006 by iccaros

[jcl]

I do have a Mac tale, My Friend, who I have known since the 9th grade, just bought a Mac. why ? because I told them I am tired of cleanign Virus and malware off people systems, and they like the free Tech support.

they bought the IMac 20" and have not called once for support. She told me it was the easyest computer for her ever to setup (she has only used windows 98 - XP).

Ah, but did she want to convert? If she was really interested in what you told her its not hard to believe that she would have been willing to adjust to the Mac. She became, however briefly, a Real User. It's the people who aren't interested that are the problem.

When her husband came to my house, he had no problems on my Gentoo box, after 5 min on the system with little help from me, and he was using it. this is a person with NO real computer experance at all, except using IE for the web and email and a little word and video games.

But can he maintain it? It's no problem using a computer if you're using it like the black box I mentioned earlier. I've converted normal people to Linux and while they're completely comfortable I know that they couldn't maintain the systems themselves. Christ, I know people who can't maintain OS X. Hitting the menu item to pull in updates is completely outside their experience.

(Windows is again terrible in this respect but people are used to it. If a program breaks, reinstall. If that doesn't work, reinstall other things. If that doesn't work, reinstall Windows. If that doesn't work, buy a new computer. It sounds like a joke if you know what you're doing, but it's what people expect. Look at how many new Linux users solve every little problem by reinstalling the system. (Distros should recognize this behavior and handle it gracefully. A "fast reinstall" option that actually repaired and reconfigured the existing system might work.))

I know windows users have problems with things that are diffrent, at work we have set alot of users to "classic mode" as they can not figure out XP, so my fear is, what will we do with Vista?

Turn off Aero and use the W2k UI. You might even be able to produce an Aero theme that's close enough to keep them happy.

[hitest]

JCL we all respect your thought on these things.. and we need your kind of knowlage.. its people like you who help make this one of the best linux boards..

he h

I heartily agree, iccaros! This is a fascinating thread. Our linux board is one of the best places to visit because of people like you, jcl.

I greatly respect your perspective, jcl! I agree with all of your points jcl. You are correct, Linux does ignore the human factor in favour of engineering.

I have found that I do tend to try to offer help to my co-workers on their windows box at a level that they are comfortable with. Heh, most of my co-workers get glassy-eyed if I even mention the word Linux.

[shanenin]

(Windows is again terrible in this respect but people are used to it. If a program breaks, reinstall. If that doesn't work, reinstall other things. If that doesn't work, reinstall Windows. If that doesn't work, buy a new computer. It sounds like a joke if you know what you're doing, but it's what people expect. Look at how many new Linux users solve every little problem by reinstalling the system. (Distros should recognize this behavior and handle it gracefully. A "fast reinstall" option that actually repaired and reconfigured the existing system might work.))

Edited June 11, 2006 by shanenin

[jcl]

You are correct, Linux does ignore the human factor in favour of engineering.

In the interest of fairness, I'll qualify that a bit. There are Linux projects that take human factors very seriously. GNOME is possibly the best example and KDE is moving in that direction. It's the community as a whole that suffers from the engineering obsession.

(More fairness: Serious Windows users have the same engineering focus. Look at gamers. How many of them would be willing to trade 10 FPS for a more a user-friendly UI? Half of them would probably go back to Win3.1 if they thought it would boost their framerates.)

I have found that I do tend to try to offer help to my co-workers on their windows box at a level that they are comfortable with. Heh, most of my co-workers get glassy-eyed if I even mention the word Linux.

Same here. I don't even try to explain things. When possible I try to work within their mental model of the computer. When that isn't possible I shut up, nod a lot, do what they want done, and leave.

[jcl]

That hits it on the head. I know so little about the innerworkings of windows, I typically use the above methods when I professionally service a windows machine. I could spend an hour reinstalling, or many many hours(and still fail) trying to manually fix the problem.

Yeah, well, that might not have been a good example. Windows really is hard to fix regardless of your skill level. I know a fair bit about the NT internals but I'd be scared to attack a broken WinXP box the same way I do a Linux box. Even the nominal Windows techs tend to do voodoo support. Update your AV definitions, hit Windows Update, post a HJT log, sacrifice a chicken....

It's a shame too. NT really is a neat system. It's the blasted Win32 subsystem that's the problem.

With all of spyware/adware out their today, windows seems to need a good reinstall to keep running fast. Spyware/adawere seem to make so many changes to the OS, it becomes unfixable.

Oh God don't remind me. I had to do a W2k reinstall over the phone a couple weeks ago. There was a bit of adware that dug so deep that we couldn't even tear it out by hand. The reinstall went okay until we discovered that the driver for the Ethernet card was only available online. Ever talked someone through a NIC transplant? Took three days to get the bastard up and running again.

Odd thing is that nothing like that has ever happened to me. Worst I've had on a Windows is a bit of innocuous spyware. Never use anti-virus or anti-spyware, never avoid dangerous Websites, still don't get hit by anything nasty. I thought that I had a performance death spiral once but it turned out that the Northwood mobile P4s just suck like the infinite vacuum of space. I feel left out.

Edited June 12, 2006 by jcl

[iccaros]

never happend to me before chernobal?sp? virus, that thing killed my first CD burner by deleting its firmware.. It only takes once to really piss you off.

hay I'm at Tech-ed if anyone has some windows questions they need answered..

I just when to a class on powershell, nich formating features adn its tied with .net (not sure here if I want my shell that tied to the OS)

I see issues with securing this, but it is powerful...

[iccaros]

Ah, but did she want to convert? If she was really interested in what you told her its not hard to believe that she would have been willing to adjust to the Mac. She became, however briefly, a Real User. It's the people who aren't interested that are the problem.

[jcl]

but I can script out a Linux box and set it up for ssh with Key authenication, and I would administer it.

[hitest]

Odd thing is that nothing like that has ever happened to me. Worst I've had on a Windows is a bit of innocuous spyware. Never use anti-virus or anti-spyware, never avoid dangerous Websites, still don't get hit by anything nasty. I thought that I had a performance death spiral once but it turned out that the Northwood mobile P4s just suck like the infinite vacuum of space. I feel left out.

Heh- you're lucky, man! I've got an 11 year old daughter who would feel left out if she couldn't use msn messenger on her XP box. Thankfully, she's running FF 1.5.0.4 so spyware is kept to a minimum. I once let my copy of Norton AV get woefully obsolete on my older windows box ( I no longer own that junker) and then picked up a nasty java script virus from a web page that I couldn't get rid of.......aaarrrrggghhhh.

I just paid the SOBs at Symantec $39.00 to download NAV 2006 for my daughter's XP box. I'm really paranoid about security on my kid's XP box.