Ever Wonder Why More People Don't Use Linux?

[bearskin]

ok, here's my experience. last night I decided to try linux. I decided to start with knoppix. I found the knoppix site and decided to download knoppix live cd. I clicked on download. this directed me to anotehr site with a long list of download sites from various countries. I clicked on 3 or 4 sites. got a 404 or pages that said nothing about knoppix. finally I clicked on a site that had it but there were several files to choose from. not knowing which file I needed I gave up in frustration. I have yet to find a site where I can just click on download and get the file. this has happened numerous times with othr linux distros. well I need this file plus if I want to do this I need another file and probably need this file then 50 different versions, also then download more stuff to do do an iso file. too many files and don't have any idea which one I need. yes I could order a cd off the web but I feel no need to go any further with this bad dream. sorry to say but I will have to stay wit M$ windows.

[shanenin]

they both have their advantages and disagvantages.

I spent quite a bit of time yesterday looking for changes in my registry and fixing them because I got a virus somehow. I did not enjoy WASTING time looking for traces of crap on my system. This forum in particular helps people decifer log files so people can revmove spyware from their system, some people may concider that a pain in the arse.

I use windows every day, it is pretty well polished, it has some great software that runs on it, but it stresses me out. When I use my linux box I feel at peace, even if some of my programs are buggy. To each their own :-)

Edited December 9, 2005 by shanenin

[Hai-Etlik]

Here's the Ubuntu download process starting from their home page

http://ubuntulinux.org/

Select "Download"

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/download/

Select a mirror

http://mirror.mcs.anl.gov/pub/ubuntu-iso/5.10/ (The first one listed, any should present the same page though)

It presents 6 options with clear and simple descriptions of each. If you read them it should be fairly obvious at least which architecture (PC, Mac, AMD-64) you want. And what the difference between the install and live images is.

Assuming you want a Live CD that runs on a typical IA-32 PC, you select "PC (Intel x86) live CD"

http://mirror.mcs.anl.gov/pub/ubuntu-iso/5...0-live-i386.iso

Wait for it to download, burn it, and boot from it.

That's three clicks from the main page and reading some simple directions. You only need to download the one file and burn it using whatever burnning software you have.

[Dragon]

Yes,

don't feel that Knoppix is the only LiveCD out there. I use Ubuntu myself, after I messed with Suse for about 24 hours, Ubuntu is very easy to use, installs easily, should you choose to do so, and it has KDE as well as some other versions avialable that you can choose from after you install it.

I have some of the new version cd's if you would like one pm me with a mailing address and I will send it out Monday. These disks have both the livecd and Install version. adn just about anyone here would be willing to help you set it up. Once you get into it, you may find you like, but then again if you don't like Linux, you dont' have to worry about using unnecassary disk space since you used the livecd..

Edited December 10, 2005 by Dragon

[bearskin]

ok...thanks guys. I still couldn't find any info on computer requirements. ram?....speed?....file size? the reason I wanted knoppix was I'm wanting to run on a pentium 200 with 32 megs ram. this is the only computer I have free at this time.

[shanenin]

If you are going to use a live cd, you may as well use your good hardware. Since you are experimenting on an older unit, i would reccomend installing a distro. An installed version will run better(faster) then a live version

[hitest]

they both have their advantages and disagvantages.

I spent quite a bit of time yesterday looking for changes in my registry and fixing them because I got a virus somehow. I did not enjoy WASTING time looking for traces of crap on my system. This forum in particular helps people decifer log files so people can revmove spyware from their system, some people may concider that a pain in the arse.

I use windows every day, it is pretty well polished, it has some great software that runs on it, but it stresses me out. When I use my linux box I feel at peace, even if some of my programs are buggy. To each their own :-)

Well said, shanenin! I always feel relaxed using my Linux boxes, they run flawlessly.

I find that maintaing my windows boxes to be too much work. I've got one XP box that my daughter uses to go surf on her neopets sites and inuyasha music sites. I need to clean her unit of spyware regularly. On my windows 2000 dual boot with Ubuntu 5.10 I spend a lot of time patching my win2k partition. My windows units run just fine, but, they sure take a lot of work to keep healthy.

Like you shanenin I use windows, but it isn't my first choice for an OS.

[Hai-Etlik]

There aren't realy any fixed requirements. A distro consists of a bunch of packages, you don't need to install all of them and can even replace one package with another. So a typical distro can run on a very wide range of systems depending on how you set it up.

Running a full desktop environment (Like KDE or GNOME) from a live CD seems like a bad idea with a system like that. The big, fancy, interfaces are simply going to be too big and slow or even unrunnable even without the overhead of a live CD.

[bearskin]

If you are going to use a live cd, you may as well use your good hardware. Since you are experimenting on an older unit, i would reccomend installing a distro. An installed version will run better(faster) then a live version

ok...say I go with a distro...will that run on my system? will I need to download a program to burn an ISO? what distro would you reccommend/ thanks.

[Honda_Boy]

I'm a gamer, that's why i use windows. I'd love to love Linux but all this mounting CD's Floppies and even hard drives (haven't figured hard drives yet) and the humongous pain that a lot programs are to install. so far wine is the only one that installs like a windows program but only in gnome and not KDE. If it were easier and had support for my games, i'd never use windows due to all the vulnerabilities and bugs.I do have fun with it a little on my old gateway but i have had one nag. the sound and video get out of sync on flash files but when in 98se no probs. I wish i had a single box to dedicate to linux and one for windows and a KVM switch in my room. My main system is staying strictly windows cause it is also the family system.

Fedora Core 4 i386 Download site

heres one to try it's real easy to download they even give you instructions (on the navigation bar somewhere)

my old Roxio 5 burned the ISO's with no prob. all i did was double clicked the ISO and roxio opened and started burning.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Honda_Boy

[hitest]

If you are going to use a live cd, you may as well use your good hardware. Since you are experimenting on an older unit, i would reccomend installing a distro. An installed version will run better(faster) then a live version

ok...say I go with a distro...will that run on my system? will I need to download a program to burn an ISO? what distro would you reccommend/ thanks.

You've got a pentium 200 with 32 MB RAM. The newer distros are going to be hard pressed to run x windows on an older unit like that. I've run slackware 10.2 on a Pll 266 with 128 MB RAM and it ran just fine using XFce4.

I would use something like Slackware with a really light window manager like XFce or Flux. DSL (Damn Small Linux) or Vector Linux would also do the job.

Slackware isn't an easy first choice for a Linux install though, but, you would really learn a lot about Linux.

[shanenin]

ok...say I go with a distro...will that run on my system? will I need to download a program to burn an ISO? what distro would you reccommend/ thanks.

you will need something to burn an iso. Nero would be my first thought. A good free alternative is cdburn.exe, it is a command line app that burns iso images. it is part of the windows server 2003 resource kit, this also works for XP

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...&displaylang=en

[Carnevil]

If you need free iso burning software http://www.magiciso.com/index.htm, and if you need to look for linux images to download, http://distrowatch.com/ is a good place to get any linux iso.

[bearskin]

ok...more questions. I see dam small linux. it's a 50 Mb iso. if I get something to burn an image will that run on my system? pentium 3...200 Mhz...4 gig hard drive...32 megs ram. install or live cd? at this time I'm running WINME. this box was made in 1997 so when I go into bios I have no option to boot from cd. should I flash the bios? another problem. what now? am I SOL? I can't use my main computer cause my wife would kill me if I messed this up.

[iccaros]

I'm a gamer, that's why i use windows. I'd love to love Linux but all this mounting CD's Floppies and even hard drives (haven't figured hard drives yet) and the humongous pain that a lot programs are to install. so far wine is the only one that installs like a windows program but only in gnome and not KDE. If it were easier and had support for my games, i'd never use windows due to all the vulnerabilities and bugs.I do have fun with it a little on my old gateway but i have had one nag. the sound and video get out of sync on flash files but when in 98se no probs. I wish i had a single box to dedicate to linux and one for windows and a KVM switch in my room. My main system is staying strictly windows cause it is also the family system.

Fedora Core 4 i386 Download site

heres one to try it's real easy to download they even give you instructions (on the navigation bar somewhere)

my old Roxio 5 burned the ISO's with no prob. all i did was double clicked the ISO and roxio opened and started burning.

my only windows box is to play games.. its also my MAME arcade, other then that no WINDOWs.. I keep that even more true with the kids.. the seem to like to click on the things that pop up on the internet and kill a wlndows box in days.. Its simple.. my kids have no need to mount a disk (DVDS and music are not mounted in linux) and my kid or wife should never insall a program (its why I am here). the click the Icon that says internet or openOffice. we are starting to use Kmymoney insted of quicken but I did have quicken set up with WINE.

as for you other problems..

mounting..

you raise a point I never understood as I have used computers that you had to mount everything (see C64, V20 and sinclare)

but I may be able to shed some lite. I hope....

sinple really.. UNIX like system use a single tree not CPM style drives.. so you must mount to a tree.. but the good news for people who (sorry if this seams harsh its not) don't understand anything but microsoft file structures.. the new KDE and GNOME have automounters.. same one ubuntu and SUSE have used for years.. hard drive is another matter (you should have set up mount points at install) but at my site (www.iccaros-linux.org) I have a mount all script.. if you put it in a cron job for every min as root, it will auto mount your drives and harddrives you did not mount before..

my understanding as to why more people do not use Linux..

!. been forced by the computer industry to use Microsoft, so no experiance with another OS.

2. Microsoft came with the computer so most do not know hwo to install an OS in the first place.

3. Microsoft has never offered there OS for download, so people never learned how to use the internet to download a bootable CD..

4. People hate to read. so they don't read the download instrustions..

5. People hate to think.. knoppix for example has a lot of diffrent files for download beacuse they keep every version (in case you wanted something hey removed latter) so you must thing..

highest vers number Language and .iso is the information they need

so you see at the download site.

KNOPPIX_V4.0.2CD-2005-09-23-EN.iso means knoppix version 4.0.2 cd image (not DVD) saved 9 23 2005 and it english and its a iso (image) file..

this one looks close

KNOPPIX_V4.0.2CD-2005-09-23-EN.iso.md5

but the MD5 at the end is a code you can run to make sure you have a good down load

you may also see a .sha1 or sha1.asc these are pki keys for checking that no one messed with the files (added viruses for example) but this is a servers added that is not offered my Microsoft orentated sites. you really do not need to use them but once you learn then you probaly will

I use the command line to download..

try wget ftp://downloadsite && wget ftp://downloadsite_file.md5 && md5sum filename > filechk && diff filename.md5 filechk

as soon as the file is finished downloading it will check and tell you if you have a good downlaod or not.

I could write a script.. but i'm lazy..

6. Microsoft programs like frontpage and stuff use propritary extentions that are not documented or are patented/copywriten in a way that you must pay MS to use those sites correctly.. sorry if I make software I give away if I don't feel like paying MS to do so....

7. Hardware manufatures refuse to make drivers.. I just will not buy their hardware, sorry no money from me...

the fix...

none in the near future.. We need Best Buy and crew to carry a PC with Linux on it, and for companies to make software for llinux people can buy (they will also have to make a installer as that is how microsoft got a installer) I remeber having to copy over disk and editing files to point to my programs untill wise created a unicersal software installer for windows.

good news on the installer part.. the biggist complant is that a software manufature can not guess what display manager people use (crap really.. crossover office seemed to created a installer that workes on all desktops I have tested).. but KDE and GNOME are working to gether to make hook for each others desktops.. this should fix the problem

last thought..

when you move to Linux (BSD...opensolaris) remember that you must be prepared to learn. if you had gone through the DOS days form the C64 days and now all this GUI stuff, Linux would be easy.. but sence most people have only used windows.... sorry you only know one way.. and habits are hard to break..

Good luck, ask lots of questions.

[bearskin]

I was broke into computers using win3.1 with dos 5 and learned enough that I had no trouble doing or fixing things. in fact I still have my origional copy of win3.1 and dos5. that was 180 years ago. I am sick of M$ windows and willing to experiment so I will ask questions. be back later with more questions. thank you guys.

[hitest]

I was broke into computers using win3.1 with dos 5 and learned enough that I had no trouble doing or fixing things. in fact I still have my origional copy of win3.1 and dos5. that was 180 years ago. I am sick of M$ windows and willing to experiment so I will ask questions. be back later with more questions. thank you guys.

Excellent!

I'm happy you're starting to get into Linux! Take your time and read a lot on the Internet. When you do go for it and need help please come here and post your questions.

I'm proud to say that BT has the smartest Linux experts that I've ever had the pleasure to know. These guys really know their stuff.

Welcome to Linux.

[Carnevil]

I was broke into computers using win3.1 with dos 5 and learned enough that I had no trouble doing or fixing things. in fact I still have my origional copy of win3.1 and dos5. that was 180 years ago. I am sick of M$ windows and willing to experiment so I will ask questions. be back later with more questions. thank you guys.

Excellent!

I'm happy you're starting to get into Linux! Take your time and read a lot on the Internet. When you do go for it and need help please come here and post your questions.

I'm proud to say that BT has the smartest Linux experts that I've ever had the pleasure to know. These guys really know their stuff.

Welcome to Linux.

Yeah BT has some of the best Linux people, they're actually decent people too. I use Freebsd and I don't get crap like this said to me "Oh please. The problem with FreeBSD is the same problem

that the Amiga and BE OS ran into which is that their userbases are comprised mostly of self-rightous *JACKASSES*". I can give alot more quotes like this from the linux base, but I won't hold the ramblings of a bunch of 15 year olds against all linux users. Granted it's quotes like this that drove me away from the linux community, everytime I saw any article praising any of the BSD's especially freebsd, I always saw linux users talking crap. It's like they can't control themselves or they feel threatened some how the the BSD's. Enough of my ramblings though, I'll tell you this, just stick with BT linux users and you'll be all right and won't run into the idiocy, oh and stay far far away from Gentoo linux trust me.

[shanenin]

oh and stay far far away from Gentoo linux trust me.

I like gentoo linux, even some of the self-righteous gentoo users :-) Obviously it is not a good choice for a new linux user, but it serves many people well.

wasn't BSD ports taken from gentoos portage j/k :-)

self-rightous *JACKASSES*

you will find them everywhere :-)

Edited December 12, 2005 by shanenin

[iccaros]

oh and stay far far away from Gentoo linux trust me.

hmm.. I love Gentoo (really the only linux distro I have stayed with, and the only one I run my servers with). But Linux is a personal choice..

We use BSD in our labs as a Satllite simulator, I also use it for my Firewall. matter of fact there is little not to like about BSD (pick a type) or most Linux distros (I do have a few I don't like to use). Don't know where I am going with this... except to say, the only distrobution I would tell anyone to say clear of is Linspire (due to its user runs as root) but even they created NVU..

If anyone is having problems downloading a CD (you name it, BSD,Linux,Opensolaris....)

let me know, I'll send you some DVD's or CD..

.

[Pierce]

I use freeBSD for my servers, it just works so... flawlessly. For everyday though, i use windows, simply because its easy. Okay you have to maintaine it, but you have to do that for linux systems as well, imagin a dirty ports dir with old versions, and an outdated src on BSD? Thats at least an hours work to update all that.

I use suse10.0 on my main home system, it took me 2 weeks to get mp3 support in xmms because of licencing laws (okay all i had to do was find the new multimedia packs and install them, but getting around to it was time consuming). And on my main computer, its windows. To be honest if i were to move to any system for serious applications it would be a macintosh. Idiot proof interface, with a unix background. The ultimate solution.. well almost. Also because macintosh is somewhat more supported than linux (try getting adobe on linux, and dont tell me gimp is a good alternative). And support for macintosh exists because, well you pay a price for support and a nice looking computer.

People dont understand when they say linux is "free", but TCO (total cost of ownership) is higher, why? Well because the cost of support staff and trained users to use the system are paid high fees which bring the cost of linux up. But for thoes who are able to use Linux, well then it is cheaper.

I suppose the argument of support is trivial because people are willing to help but its a valid question.

Pierce

[iccaros]

I use freeBSD for my servers, it just works so... flawlessly. For everyday though, i use windows, simply because its easy. Okay you have to maintaine it, but you have to do that for linux systems as well, imagin a dirty ports dir with old versions, and an outdated src on BSD? Thats at least an hours work to update all that.

I use suse10.0 on my main home system, it took me 2 weeks to get mp3 support in xmms because of licencing laws (okay all i had to do was find the new multimedia packs and install them, but getting around to it was time consuming). And on my main computer, its windows. To be honest if i were to move to any system for serious applications it would be a macintosh. Idiot proof interface, with a unix background. The ultimate solution.. well almost. Also because macintosh is somewhat more supported than linux (try getting adobe on linux, and dont tell me gimp is a good alternative). And support for macintosh exists because, well you pay a price for support and a nice looking computer.

People dont understand when they say linux is "free", but TCO (total cost of ownership) is higher, why? Well because the cost of support staff and trained users to use the system are paid high fees which bring the cost of linux up. But for thoes who are able to use Linux, well then it is cheaper.

I suppose the argument of support is trivial because people are willing to help but its a valid question.

Pierce

very valid points,

but I would liek to rebut with things I have observed..

Novell ,IBM, Red Hat sell support. you can get the ability to paly most media (MP3's) out of the box with the pro versions, and VLC will play DVD's and mp3's with no other software..

next.. TCO..

I have already added this up before and proved this to be incorrect, unless approched in a Microsoft way as I call it.

First Example

With Microsoft you are required to by a compy of Windows Server for each and every sever you run. With 2003 server you are also required to buy CALs for each device or/and users connecting. it used to be that a windows clients had a built in CAL. This is no longer true.. so at $100 per user or machine connecting to each server, this can add up. Also according ot Microsoft Licensing (who I argued with on the phone for over an hour) outlook no longer has a client license for exchange and you need a $100 CAL for each user connecting to exchange. (lets not even get in to SQL 2005 asking $36,000 per CPU or $1,200 per user up to 20 users)

With Red Hat you buy one server (this gives you support) and install it on all your servers. No CALs needed.

My next Thought on corperate decisions on OS.

you should have computer people who work for you not Windows people or UNIX people.. This is the messed up world that says a MCSE or a Linux Cert means anyhing. you should have a Staff that understands computers which in my openion that means they can administer a Windows systems as well as a UNIX system.. Im my workig experiance, most LINUX admins (or UNIX) also know Windows, while most Windows Admins know nothing at all about Unix based systems.

In this case if you have a all windows staff, as you stated, your cost go way up as you need to hire new admins or spend lots of time on learning curve.

you also mentioned that updating ports takes some time.. but you don't have to bring down the systems to do so.. so your users will still be running. While admin work on say Exchange most of the time requires down time.

you are listed as a Windows Expert, but I would list you also as a BSD/LINUX (UNIX person) , by what you have written.

This is what I have learned about titles (the reason for my above comment)

I used to be listed at a Systems Engineer , MCSE,MCSD,CCNA. and I was doing well, but not given High Priority or given the Jobs to make my reviews better. I have used UNIX for a long time and administerd some big UNIX systems, but Working for a Company that is a Microsoft Partner and I was the MS leason for the Division, I felt my UNIX skills would hinder me. but I one day decided (I can't remember why I did so) to add my UNIX skills to my resuma, I think it was for a Government Contract we had to submit our stuff to.

a week latter I was reciving calls asking for help, as they had only MCSE's and need someone for Soalris/IRIX/Linux/BSD work. I found that my UNIX skils got me a $10,000 pay raise that year and 5 -6 % raises each following year.. Why, I saved them money.. They found thay had the skills to go after more UNIX contracts and offer UNIX as an alternative..

So in this case I have to agree, I make more then most MCSE's so I am more expensive.. but they have only one of me.. while they have hundreds of MCSE's (this is not really true we have UNIX admins but in the 140,000 people my company employees.. 1 in 100 is probaly correct, if not more)

for Adobe you are correct, but that is adobe's fault for not supporting it.. When asked as why not support.. they state that We have GIMP and no one would pay for Adobe Photoshop on Linux.. I payed for UNREAL2004 why not Photoshop..

the bigist misconception is that Linux users will not pay for software (I guess Crossover office and WineX does not count)

This is why no ITUNES.. This is Why no Photoshop.. Is this linux/BSD fault.. nope..

I use a Mac for my music studio and Photoshop (which I suck at and GIMP would work just as well if I could import photoshop projects..which I have not tried) and for ITUNES.

just some thoughts..

PS..

please come back adn help us answer peoples questison .. you have a diffrent angle that may help people in ways people liek me can not.. also , I have found the best way to learn more is to help others as they will bring up problems you have never seen..

Thanks for the input.