Linux For Laptops

[murtu52]

My dad, who uses an old laptop (Pentium-M ~250MHZ, 224MB RAM, 10GB HD) has finally gotten sick of using windows, mostly because it doesn't run properly and doesn't have the proper safety that he so desperately needs (don't know, but he once told me that the computer was messed up; it turned out it literally had 50+ spywares on it). So, he gave me the project of installing linux and making it run with our Wireless-B router. Now, i would have used Gentoo as i was planning to use as my first HD-installed linux, but since this is a laptop, and the main thing is to use the wireless card, i thought i'd better get a recommedation before going into anything. So basically, what would be the most user-friendly (this is for my dad--he isn't technologically illiterate, but he isn't the greatest tech person, like me) distro to use, taking into the account that it must be compatible with a Linksys wireless-B notebook card, and have all the goodies most distros are usually packed with (such as open office, GAIM, GIMP, etc.). Thanks.

[hitest]

My dad, who uses an old laptop (Pentium-M ~250MHZ, 224MB RAM, 10GB HD) has finally gotten sick of using windows, mostly because it doesn't run properly and doesn't have the proper safety that he so desperately needs (don't know, but he once told me that the computer was messed up; it turned out it literally had 50+ spywares on it). So, he gave me the project of installing linux and making it run with our Wireless-B router. Now, i would have used Gentoo as i was planning to use as my first HD-installed linux, but since this is a laptop, and the main thing is to use the wireless card, i thought i'd better get a recommedation before going into anything. So basically, what would be the most user-friendly (this is for my dad--he isn't technologically illiterate, but he isn't the greatest tech person, like me) distro to use, taking into the account that it must be compatible with a Linksys wireless-B notebook card, and have all the goodies most distros are usually packed with (such as open office, GAIM, GIMP, etc.). Thanks.

Here's a web site where you can search for linux compatibility information on laptops.

Linux on Laptops

[iccaros]

gentoo is a great project.. but do you want this to be a project?? Don't get me wrong.. I use lots of linux distros and my main one is gentoo but in this case fedora 3 may be your best choice fro fast install and now good support for (fedora core 1 was just Red Hat 9) and fedora 2 was very unstable..

but with 3 I think it would be a fast install..

now Back to Gentoo.. through portage it has everything .. but you must understand what hardware the laptop has in order to set it up.. a good thing to do if you are going to build gentoo is boot a knoppix CD and run lsmod to get a list of the modules you will need. this way when you build yoru kernel you will know what needs loaded. you can also build from knoppix .. just follow the handbook.

another trick is to do a lspci to list the hardware the linux kernel detects.. this will also let you see the chipsets the equipment is using and some times that makes it easyer to find drivers..

good luck on the project..

Edited March 9, 2005 by iccaros

[jcl]

Gentoo wouldn't be my first choice. If it was your laptop it'd be fine, but Gentoo maintenance can be pretty time consuming. You'd have to make sure he'd be willing to periodically surrender the machine for hours or days at a time while you ran updates. Or willing to learn portage himself.

The wireless card will no doubt be tricky. It would help if you knew exactly what chipset it uses. I have found reports of Wireless-B adapters working under Linux but it looks like it was trial and error until the correct driver was found.

Easiest way to get the chipset information (AFAIK) is to boot the machine with a liveCD and run

$ lspci -v

and stare at the output until you see something that looks like the adapter, then run

$ lspci -vn

and find the same entry as above but with the vendor and device strings (an eight digit hex number of the form xxxx:xxxx) for the card, and Google for them. If you're lucky the second step may not be necessary; the database may have an entry for the device and you'll get a nice description instead, or it may print the device string right off the bat (I don't have any unknown devices so I can't check). I've had better luck searching for vendor/device strings than descriptions.

Or you install Linux and pound on it for a few hours until you find a driver that works. If it doesn't work out he'll at least get a clean install of Windows.

Edited March 9, 2005 by jcl

[murtu52]

Alright, i knew portage was complicated, but i thought i'd eventually pick it up...So, instead i should go for fedora? i'll go download it now...

When i was first introduced to unix, a cousin of mine told me to check out debian. Now that i know a bit more about unix and linux, i know that debian is not the easiest distro to learn. However, i do have knoppix now, and i read somewhere that it can be installed onto the HD as debian. Is this true, and if it is, is it something achieveable by a linux newb like me?

As you said, jcl, i'll boot with a live CD and find if it supports it....I also heard that linksys wireless-b adapters run under linux, but i've yet to achieve it myself....

[hitest]

Alright, i knew portage was complicated, but i thought i'd eventually pick it up...So, instead i should go for fedora? i'll go download it now...

When i was first introduced to unix, a cousin of mine told me to check out debian. Now that i know a bit more about unix and linux, i know that debian is not the easiest distro to learn. However, i do have knoppix now, and i read somewhere that it can be installed onto the HD as debian. Is this true, and if it is, is it something achieveable by a linux newb like me?

As you said, jcl, i'll boot with a live CD and find if it supports it....I also heard that linksys wireless-b adapters run under linux, but i've yet to achieve it myself....

I just did a bit of surfing, had a look at the specs required to run Fedora, you've got enough memory, but your processor is a bit slow to run Fedora. So I think another distro may be in order. I run FC3 on a Plll 667 MHz IBM with 256 MB RAM and I had to pare down the services to make it run well.

Hardware Requirements

The following information represents the minimum hardware requirements necessary to successfully install Fedora Core 3.

Note

The compatibility/availability of other hardware components (such as video and network cards) may be required for specific installation modes and/or post-installation usage.

CPU Requirements

This section lists the CPU specifications required by Fedora Core 3.

Note

The following CPU specifications are stated in terms of Intel processors. Other processors (notably, offerings from AMD, Cyrix, and VIA) that are compatible with and equivalent to the following Intel processors may also be used with Fedora Core.

*

Minimum: Pentium-class

Fedora Core 3 is optimized for Pentium 4 CPUs, but also supports earlier CPUs (such as Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and including AMD and VIA variants). This approach has been taken because Pentium-class optimizations actually result in reduced performance for non-Pentium-class processors, and Pentium 4 scheduling is sufficiently different (while making up the bulk of today's processors) to warrant this change.

*

Recommended for text-mode: 200 MHz Pentium-class or better

*

Recommended for graphical: 400 MHz Pentium II or better

Hard Disk Space Requirements

This section lists the disk space required to install Fedora Core 3.

Note

The disk space requirements listed below represent the disk space taken up by Fedora Core 3 after the installation is complete. However, additional disk space is required during the installation to support the installation environment. This additional disk space corresponds to the size of /Fedora/base/stage2.img (on CD-ROM 1) plus the size of the files in /var/lib/rpm on the installed system.

In practical terms, this means that as little as an additional 90MB can be required for a minimal installation, while as much as an additional 175MB can be required for an "everything" installation.

Also, keep in mind that additional space will be required for any user data, and at least 5% free space should be maintained for proper system operation.

*

Custom Installation (Minimal): 620MB

*

Server: 1.1GB

*

Personal Desktop: 2.3GB

*

Workstation: 3.0GB

*

Custom Installation (Everything): 6.9GB

Memory Requirements

This section lists the memory required to install Fedora Core 3.

*

Minimum for text-mode: 64MB

*

Minimum for graphical: 192MB

*

Recommended for graphical: 256MB

Edited March 10, 2005 by hitest

[jcl]

      Fedora Core 3 is optimized for Pentium 4 CPUs, but also supports earlier CPUs (such as Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and including AMD and VIA variants). This approach has been taken because Pentium-class optimizations actually result in reduced performance for non-Pentium-class processors, and Pentium 4 scheduling is sufficiently different (while making up the bulk of today's processors) to warrant this change.

Heh. My understanding is that GCC doesn't schedule for the P4 at all. It does perform some instruction-level optimizations, but the code it produces is almost identical that produced for the (also unscheduled) i386 and i486 targets.

[murtu52]

Well, my processor should be able to run text mode just fine, but i need GUI because my dad will be using this computer...as i said, he isn't technologically illiterate, just a newb, like me....I'm not sure how Pentium M stands up against other Pentiums (like P2) but i'm pretty sure it isn't a lot more power...or am i wrong?

[iccaros]

      Fedora Core 3 is optimized for Pentium 4 CPUs, but also supports earlier CPUs (such as Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and including AMD and VIA variants). This approach has been taken because Pentium-class optimizations actually result in reduced performance for non-Pentium-class processors, and Pentium 4 scheduling is sufficiently different (while making up the bulk of today's processors) to warrant this change.

Heh. My understanding is that GCC doesn't schedule for the P4 at all. It does perform some instruction-level optimizations, but the code it produces is almost identical that produced for the (also unscheduled) i386 and i486 targets.

you have to set more flags for the P4 .. anandtech has an story on what needs set to get the most out of a P4..

as to the last.. the P4m I have found to be much slower than a standard P4.. they lowered the L2 and L1 (at least in my laptop).

[murtu52]

as to the last.. the P4m I have found to be much slower than a standard P4.. they lowered the L2 and L1 (at least in my laptop).

Well, i guess you have to give something up to get the better power consumption....

Also, iccaros, i think i misunderstood you in a previous post....I thought you said that Gentoo would be bad as a distro for this situation....I think i want to make this a project, but i first need it to have internet access first (because the only reason my dad is letting do this is because right now the internet on his laptop isn't working; I can linux on the laptop under one condition: that the internet works). So if i can get the internet aspect running, i'm fine with learning the ropes of portage and Gentoo....

[hitest]

      Fedora Core 3 is optimized for Pentium 4 CPUs, but also supports earlier CPUs (such as Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and including AMD and VIA variants). This approach has been taken because Pentium-class optimizations actually result in reduced performance for non-Pentium-class processors, and Pentium 4 scheduling is sufficiently different (while making up the bulk of today's processors) to warrant this change.

Heh. My understanding is that GCC doesn't schedule for the P4 at all. It does perform some instruction-level optimizations, but the code it produces is almost identical that produced for the (also unscheduled) i386 and i486 targets.

All of the text that I provided is copied and pasted from the Fedora website. Fedora claims it's optimized for P4. I'm not in a position to argue with them.

If Fedora is too much a RAM hog, that is, you won't be able to use a GUI I suggest you try Mandrake 10.1.

Mandrake 10.1 is less RAM intensive and it is very good at identifying hardware.

Here are the required specs for Mandrake 10.1

Processor: an x586-class or above processor is required. This includes Intel Pentium I/II/III/IV/Celeron, AMD K6/II/III, AMD Duron, AMD Athlon/XP/MP. Hyper-Threading is supported. SMP multi-processor machines are supported. (*)

Memory: at least 64 MB is required (32 MB for text-install); 128 MB or more is recommended.

Hard disks: IDE, SCSI and S-ATA hard disks are supported.

Hard disk size: At least 500MB is required, 1GB is recommended. Large capacity drives are supported (up to 250GB).

SCSI controllers: most SCSI controllers are supported (Adaptec, Tekram, LSI Logic, Advansys...).

RAID controllers: most RAID controllers are supported, excepted for IDE and Serial-ATA. 3Ware IDE and Serial-ATA RAID controllers are supported though.

USB and USB 2.0: most USB devices are supported.

CD-ROM and DVD-ROM drives and burners: Most IDE, SCSI, PCMCIA, IEEE 1394/FireWire models are supported (this includes DVD+RW and DVD-RW).

Graphic cards: Most ISA, PCI and AGP cards are supported, including VESA, NVidia®, ATI, 3DFX, SIS, S3, Matrox, Intel i865G, i85x, i81x i845G, Trident. 3D acceleration is available for Matrox G200/G400/G500, Voodoo III/V/Banshee, Intel i8XX, ATI Rage 128/Pro & Radeon, Nvidia (GeForce and Nforce). i9xx chipset are supported in VESA mode.

Network adapters: All cards based on Intel, Realtek, 3COM, NVIDIA®, Broadcom and Marvell chipsets. USB adapters are supported. Most PCMCIA, PCI and USB wireless network cards are supported. Most modems, RNIS, DSL and wireless devices are supported. Most "WinModems" are not supported.

Printers: Most printers are supported. Most "WinPrinters" are not supported.

Sound Cards: All Sound Blaster-compatible soundcards, Sound Blaster/Ensoniq (Audigy, Live), X Wave, Crystal, Intel®, AMD, NVIDIA® force, VIA, CMI C-Media, ESS Maestro, Yamaha YMF744, Terratec, AC'97.

Laptops: Most laptops are supported. Centrino drivers are provided in commercial products.

Misc.: Numerous TV cards, all Wacom graphics tablets, many scanners, most web cams, digital cameras and FireWire devices are supported.

[murtu52]

yes, mandrake does sound like a very good choice, but is there another choice? i want a more in-depth (basically harder) distro, so i can really learn unix/linux? or can i get that same challenge with mandrake; or maybe i'm just fully out of my mind and should take it easy?

[hitest]

yes, mandrake does sound like a very good choice, but is there another choice? i want a more in-depth (basically harder) distro, so i can really learn unix/linux? or can i get that same challenge with mandrake; or maybe i'm just fully out of my mind and should take it easy?

Good point.

Mandrake is not difficult at all to set-up or install, it installs quickly in about 20-30 minutes. It'll identify all of your hardware, auto-detect your router, your video card. It is very noobtastic. It is a great choice for a first Linux install, it's pretty hard to screw up. It'll auto partition your hard drive too.

It is designed to be very user friendly and a lot of the settings are designed for beginners. However, it can be tweaked, you're not limited to the stock install, you can go in and mess around. I run it on a Plll 500 MHz Dell Optiplex with 192 MB RAM. It works fine for me with RAM to spare.

It seemed like a good fit for your hardware.

A harder choice would be Slackware or BSD. But, you have to manually partition your hard drive, set-up stuff. I'm not an expert on these distros, iccaros, jcl, or shanenin can help you if you get stuck with those choices. Slack or BSD are distros that use less system resources, they're harder to set-up. You would certainly learn a lot.

Edited March 11, 2005 by hitest

[murtu52]

yes, mandrake does sound like a very good choice, but is there another choice? i want a more in-depth (basically harder) distro, so i can really learn unix/linux? or can i get that same challenge with mandrake; or maybe i'm just fully out of my mind and should take it easy?

Good point.

Mandrake is not difficult at all to set-up or install, it installs quickly in about 20-30 minutes. It'll identify all of your hardware, auto-detect your router, your video card. It is very noobtastic. It is a great choice for a first Linux install, it's pretty hard to screw up. It'll auto partition your hard drive too.

It is designed to be very user friendly and a lot of the settings are designed for beginners. However, it can be tweaked, you're not limited to the stock install, you can go in and mess around. I run it on a Plll 500 MHz Dell Optiplex with 192 MB RAM. It works fine for me with RAM to spare.

It seemed like a good fit for your hardware.

A harder choice would be Slackware or BSD. But, you have to manually partition your hard drive, set-up stuff. I'm not an expert on these distros, iccaros, jcl, or shanenin can help you if you get stuck with those choices. Slack or BSD are distros that use less system resources, they're harder to set-up. You would certainly learn a lot.

Thats what i'm aiming for. As long as i can set up the internet with limited knowledge (or help from the linux experts) i don't mind the challenge, i welcome it. So, what do you guys think?

[iccaros]

if you want a project and what to see hwo hard gentoo would be to get working.. download the install cd.. boot it .see if you have internet (or network connection)

if so internet will work with it easy in gentoo.

I love gentoo But I would not put it on a non-Linux persons PC..

for an older laptop I would try slackware.. it can still be a project .. but is easy to maintain..

[murtu52]

I don't mind if its hard to use, and i'm sure it can't run THAT slow, because windows 2000 works pretty well. But please remember, i need the proper drivers to use my wireless-B card....once that works, i can take as much time as i want learning portage, or whatever i please....

[iccaros]

portage is simple.. emerge whatever.. or the hard part edit he file /etc/portage/package.keywords and add name of pacake and type for masked packages..

example

echo "net-media/vlc ~x86" >> /etc/portage/package.keywords

&& emerge vlc

which B card.. if you go to gentoo.org and look at online packages you can search to see if your driver is in portage.

[TheLetterK]

yes, mandrake does sound like a very good choice, but is there another choice? i want a more in-depth (basically harder) distro, so i can really learn unix/linux? or can i get that same challenge with mandrake; or maybe i'm just fully out of my mind and should take it easy?

How about Debian? Not exactly 'difficult', but it yeilds a system that is much easier to use than, say, Mandrake.

[murtu52]

Yeah, i was considering Debian, but i heard it was quite complicated for a beginner, but i guess not as complicated as i thought. If i only could figure out how to install knoppix on the HD (as debian), i'd be set....

However, a new thing came up that my dad told me. My family has really wanted a DVR (digital video recorder) for our TV, however we don't want to pay the $5 a month for the subscription (from Dish Network). In the past i tried to make one, but failed due to insufficient help from the net, and my dad also wouldn't let me install linux onto the computer, which many of the good programs would only work with. However, now he is permitting me to because of my family's desire for the DVR. He told me to first install the linux onto the laptop first before fiddling with the other computer, so i know everything will work. So, basically, including all the previous things i need on the linux, i also need one that would be a good choice for a DVR (does the distro really make a difference on recording capabilities, or is it just the software?). Thanks.

[iccaros]

DVR...

mythtv (they even have a live cd already with hard drive install scripts..)

pvr 250 is probaly the best card you can get.. the mythtv live cd is made to work with it out of the box..

[iccaros]

http://hust.la/KnoppMyth/

[murtu52]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH ICCAROS. This is exactly what i was looking for. I'll download it right now, and i'll install it with both fingers crossed. If this works, then it'll make my life a whole lot easier....